interviews
Student Debt on HBCU Campuses
by Lodriguez Murray
September 29, 2020
This interview with Lodriguez Murray, the Senior Vice President for Government Affairs at UNCF, was conducted and condensed by franknews.
Lodriguez | UNCF is an organization, started in 1944, dedicated to supporting historically Black colleges and universities (HBCUs) — both the students and the schools. We provide financial support to our 37 member schools, we do a lot of work to benefit the whole of HBCUs, and every year, we award upwards of $100 million scholarship to 10,000 students at 1,100 different colleges and universities.
frank | There is a student loan debt crisis. What does the crisis look like for HBCU students in particular?
We know that HBCU students carry more debt, but many people stop the explanation there. When we stop the conversation there, it makes it seem like these schools are more expensive or more onerous for the students that choose to attend.
HBCU students carry more debt because the students are, by and large, the progeny of slaves. The debt disparity is more of a commentary on the economic injustices African-Americans have experienced over the decades, than it is a commentary on the schools.
Students at HBCUs carry more debt because those students come from statistically lower socioeconomic backgrounds than students at other schools. 75% of our student population is Pell Grant eligible. That is 20 percentage points more than at a predominantly white institution (PWI). At some of our schools upwards of 90% of our students are Pell-eligible.
Is the disparity solely within the amount that HBCU students carry, or are there differences in the interest rates and the types of loans they have?
81% of HBCU students receive some type of loan assistance to go to school. And the types of loans do really matter.
A study came out earlier this year that compared HBCU graduates with PWI graduates of the same age, same job, same income, and the same amount of loans. The students attending HBCUs were charged a higher interest rate on their loans.
We call that the HBCU paradox. Our students, because of the type of institution they chose, are "taxed" for their choice.
What explains the difference in interest rates?
To explain that, you have to look at the systematic racism in our country. Black people have a harder time accessing capital. That's a statistical fact. And when Black people access capital, it often happens at the worst rates terms and conditions.
There are financial institutions that have seen us as risky in the past, and you can extrapolate from there to understand what financial institutions do by looking at the name of the college that a student has attended.
Can you talk about the role that Parent PLUS loans play on HBCU campuses?
About half of our students in 2020 are first-generation college students. Families are doing all they can to make college happen for their kids, but due to the economic situation of many of these families have very few options. When other financial aid options are exhausted, folks look to Parent PLUS loans.
We have a sorted history with the Parent PLUS loans at UNCF. We recognize the need for students to access capital to attend school, but we also recognize the need to improve elements of the loan to make it less predatory.
One of the things you should know about that program is that it is an option that many African American students use to access education. You should also know that the Obama administration changed the rules for Parent PLUS loans to require a nearly perfect credit score in order to obtain a Parent PLUS loan. That change completely hampered the HBCU community. It negatively impacted about 400,000 students nationwide. We saw a significant decline in enrollment at HBCUs, which was financially devastating to our community.
We know that African Americans have a harder time accessing capital, and when they access it, it is at the worst rates.
So, why would you punish people who, because of their historic relationship with financial institutions, have had to accept capital at the worst rates? We fought with Congress and the administration to improve their calculations around who could access the Parent PLUS loans.
With that said, certain things should be done to improve Parent PLUS loans, and all other loans, so they no longer cause such harm to students and families.
What changes do you advocate for as an organization?
We believe student and parent loan interest rates should be reduced. We believe the origination fees should be eliminated. We believe loan interest subsidies should remain for low-income students. We believe there should be streamlined loan payment options, and that income-based loan repayment should be automatic. And we believe the federal government should make it easier for students to refinance their loans to have lower interest rates.
We believe in improving and expanding the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program. There are a lot of HBCU students that are teachers, police, officers, firefighters.
Those graduates should have access to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, but the program has been close to ineffective, no matter which administration is runnig it.
And no one has a good explanation for the program is not working well. It seems like someone's not being held accountable. There are many of students whose loans should be paid down as we speak, but they are not because that program is not working well.
Do you advocate for debt forgiveness?
We believe in debt forgiveness, but we believe it should be progressive. Why would we automatically forgive the loans of a graduate who is making $300,000 and can easily pay their loans? That makes it harder to forgive the loans of a teacher who is two years out of school making $40,000.
And when you say makes it harder — what do you mean?
It will be a bigger number and that bigger number will be harder for Congress and the American people to swallow. But if you prioritize graduates who make less money, then it is a much more attractive policymaking item.
How does the federal funding of HBCUs play into this story?
Congress invests a certain amount of money on an annual basis to help subsidize the schools. They recognize that, despite years of underfunding, HBCUs educate civilians from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and graduate them at higher rates than more well-resourced institutions.
But we know that HBCUs have been under-invested in, period.
That was especially evident when states and the federal government pulled back from investing in higher education after the Great Recession. In recent years, we have seen some reversal of that trend, but not enough to combat the chronic underinvestment in the institutions. And by chronic, I mean buildings need repairs and there are students who should have scholarships but don’t have them.
We need both the federal government and the philanthropic community to invest more in these schools. And we need to recognize that investment in our institutions yields more of a return than investment in those schools that have a billion-dollar endowment.
At the beginning of the pandemic, we were all bracing for a draconian year. After the death of George Floyd, the philanthropic community saw HBCUs and our organization as a way to right social ills. They came to us with donations, and with that money, we will be able to support more students than ever before. We've had the really largest philanthropic boom ever.
The CEO of Netflix and his wife personally gave $121 million, with $40 million going to the UNFC, $40 million going to Morehouse College, and $40 million to Spellman. Mackenzie Scott gave tens of millions of dollars to HBCUs. These kinds of moves have been terribly helpful to break the cyclical pattern.
I wonder if there are ways that you would advocate for the federal government to also fill that gap?
As a matter of fact, every major presidential candidate had policy proposals that benefited HBCUs. And we were able to educate them and convince them certain policies from four years ago were stale. For example, now all candidates, have free college proposals that include private HBCUs, as opposed to only including public institutions.
The major campaigns that remain have proposals regarding HBCU. Both political conventions prominently featured and mentioned HBCUs. That is something that has not always happened. That's not the par for the course for us. We are experiencing a new wave of people and a new wave of interest in a particular type of institution.
At first glance, you might say, do I even need to do a story on this small number of schools? But once you look at the actual impact of the schools it is evident these few schools are doing so much more than anyone would ever expect. These schools are only 3% of all the higher education institutions in the country, but they graduate around 10% of African-American bachelor's recipients. In the states where they are located, they educate a quarter of the Black graduates and they produce nearly 40% of all the Black STEM graduates. When you put those schools together and you have nearly a $15 billion economic impact on the country a year.
These schools really punch above their weight.
interviews
An Interview with Fabian Cobos
by frank
July 10, 2018
This interview with Fabian Cobos, the owner of Golden Goose Tattoo in El Paso, was conducted and condensed by frank news.
Tatti: Would you introduce yourself?
Fabian Cobos: My name is Fabian Cobos. I'm the owner of the Golden Goose Tattoo here in El Paso, Texas. The first thing that people have to understand about El Paso is that it's definitely a border town. It's got that border mentality, and I think that's why you're filming and you're looking for people to talk to about this. You're going to find a lot of people who don't know what's going on, or that do know and can't really form an opinion about it, because what becomes part of that border mentality is everyone along this area, most of their families have been through some sort of process, legally or illegally to be here, and the United States immigration law is so complicated. If you're going to be tied to the law, and feel a victim to it then you're never going to get to live here. So to us, I think it’s more of immigration is just, the way it is now it's just something that it's evolved into, and it's always going to keep evolving, the laws always going to change. I don't picture it getting any easier.
Tatti: Has it gotten progressively harder since you've grown up?
Fabian Cobos: I think so. I was born here, so I haven't had to go through the process, but I know my grandfather on my dad's side made it a point to come here, become a citizen, and made sure that all his children became citizens, and it was very important to him for them to go through that process. He was very proud of it.
My dad still has the recordings of him practicing for the test, and trying to memorize the Bill of Rights, just everything, and he left a stable position in Mexico to come and be a garbage man here in the United States, and I know it means a lot to my father that my grandfather made it a point and was so proud of the whole process in becoming an American citizen, and that all his kids went through it.
He made sure that they all knew English, because he totally believed that this was the place to come to have a better quality of life, and he was right. My family has benefited tremendously by him making that decision. I have a lot of family that can't come over, and don't have money to go through the process. Then, I have family that did have the means or the resources that are now American citizens here. Fleeing the violence that was getting really bad in Juarez.
Tatti: It comes down to whether or not one is wealthy enough.
Fabian Cobos: There's a lot of factors: how wealthy, how motivated, because even if you're not wealthy enough, and I think now that's what they're trying to combat. 'Cause if you're motivated enough you can still get here. Whether you'll stay here or not is different, but that need and that want to come here and get a better life, it's a very human thing to want. Especially when the world around you is crumbling and you feel hopeless in what's your hometown.
That's why it's a touchy subject and I don't know what the right path is. I may have my opinions, but I don't know. I don't know if it's the right choice. I don't agree with a completely open border, but I do believe that there needs to be a process where it's more efficient and we are getting more of the right people in. I don't think that's the, and I may be wrong, but I don't think that's an aspect that our administration right now is looking at. I don't think they want anyone here right now, you know what I mean? Which is dangerous to us. To who we are as a country and to our economy.
Tatti: Does your business get affected when immigration laws get tougher?
Fabian Cobos: Not really, but I mean we're different. We do tattoo a lot of people coming across from the border, tattoo a lot of soldiers, tattoo lawyers, doctors. The tattoo industry, even when the recession was going on and the economy was really hurting, the tattoo industry wasn't greatly effected. People in their toughest times in life, when they're losing everything, their house, their car, and everything, will come and get a tattoo with their last dollars, because that's the one thing people can't take from them. It doesn't really affect my industry, but it does affect my neighbors and the people that I work next to, and I need them to thrive and flourish also. That's the thing is, I don't think many El Pasoans are going to dread on it, because here you really have to adapt to anything that's going on. There's so many factors.
When Juarez was going through the peaks of violence a lot of people were scared that it was going to affect El Paso business, and that people were going to run from El Paso. Which is considered one of the safest cities in America. In El Paso it's not that no one cares, it's just they don't really see that they can make a difference here. I think most El Pasoans focus in on the local government, but as far as anything federal or anything that goes beyond this area, not many people are willing to jump in to have a voice or an opinion. 'Cause we feel like it's so far from us. We don't know what's right or wrong. The media portrays it in so many different ways. It's hard to tell.
Tatti: What’s the reality of living in a border city? There is definitely a shared identity between El Paso and Juarez.
Fabian Cobos: Yeah, because if you're a born and raised in El Paso then you've definitely been to Juarez a few times, and you probably still go quite a bit. That process to us is something that we've always been a part of. It's nothing new for us.
El Paso is booming. Our economy is doing the best it's ever done. The private investment, the local investment is tremendous right now. It's an investor's dream right now in El Paso. So many opportunities, and so we're growing. We're considered one of the United States only boom towns right now, and you can see it. There's construction going on all over the place, brand new medical school. The unemployment has dropped tremendously. Everyone's got jobs. Everything is great in El Paso. I think El Pasoans are what make that happen, and it's not that we don't care. It's just when we're focusing here and we're making it happen, and making our dreams come true here, then we just kind of go along for the ride with what decisions are being made for us.
Tatti: Do you feel any emotional response, as a Mexican-American, to the rhetoric that you hear coming out of White House?
Fabian Cobos: I don't think that is has anything to do, and first of all yes I do, but I don't think it has to do with me being Mexican-American. I think it just has more to with me being human, and having compassion for what theses people have to go through. It means nothing, the fact that I'm Mexican-American, and how I feel about it. I have had family members come through legally and have become citizens legally, but yeah my compassion for those people are just based out of my heart. It has nothing to do with my race or where I'm from.
That's why they're so quick to label everything as a war now. A war on this, a war on that, a war on this, because a war is the most profitable fucking thing we can do. There's so many industries involved in that.
You have to have something to fight. Especially now because what's happening now in El Paso is the same thing that created New York and San Francisco, immigration and migration. It's always been the most central part of our borders, and now the newest hottest border is the southern border and we're right smack in the middle. So it's only a matter of time, and you see the infrastructure going at this tremendous fucking pace, and it's only a matter of year to where we're going to be just as big as New York, L.A. It's going to have to be.
Tatti: What would you ask your senators about immigration if you were speaking to them?
Fabian Cobos: I don't think I'd be satisfied, I couldn't ask them.